What should our new rulebook look like?

[~Glim~]

PURE SPECULATION thread.

I finally found a nice pdf of the rulebook. So I read through it and found some things noticeable.
How should models and our armyrules itself change in our next (whenever) armybook?


Core:GG,GR,EG,Dryads
Special:WD,WR,WR,TK
Rare:WW,GE,TM

Don't think they will delete units, or change the choices.

I got a strange feeling when reading about a 5+ regeneration save. Sounds a lot like something that could replace our forest spirit save, don't you think? And a lot more fluffy.

Quick to fire, ignores cover, glade guard? (they also could make them skirmish)

dryads, someone mentioned blocks, no skirmish. Can't really imagine that.

WW, heroic killing blow, sniper?

Dragon, they should up the breath weapon.

I sincerely hope that the Treeman becomes unbreakable instead of stubborn.
Also, I double hope for something to negate steadfast.


So what do you think of this? Or did you had any thoughts of yourself?

edit: ambush would be interesting on the WW. I mean, it could work....

Moved to the Weald of Evolution ~ Beithir

[Wolf_Man]

Army Wide:
A nice change I could see is giving all Asrai champions equipped with bows the Sniper rule (Say hello to a useful champion again).
Forest Spirit moving to a 5+ regen would be nice. All forest spirits hate opponents with flame.
Forest Walkers reduces the chance of the forest attacking us, possibly granting us poison ranged attacks if we're in that forest.
Asrai archery works as it does now, with the addition that any roll of a 1 to hit can be rerolled.
Dryad and Treekin champions have 25 pt spite allowance (max one spite).
EG, WD, WW, and WR have 25 point magic allowance.
Our free forest is changed to D3 forests taken from the terrain allowance.

Characters and Kindreds:
Characters remain almost unchanged.
Glamourweave Kindred no longer requires mount.
Eternal Guard Kindred allows use of weapons and armor to stack on kindred benefits, but cannot be the general (because he's obviously too busy training the Eternal Guard all year to be a leader of the people).
Waywatcher kindred gives Heroic Lethal shot, and can be combined with magic bow effects.
Wardancer Kindred gives Heroic Killing blow with the KB dance.

Magic Items:
More variety in Spites and their costs. (Elves can only take one spite, Branchies and TMA can take any number).
More effective Hero cost combos.
At least one more Wardancer Weapon option.

Unit specific:
Scouts get significant points drop.
Dryads are cool.
GG are pretty decent. Maybe allowing them to arc shots (large template, indirect fire as Stone thrower, no LOS required 24"-42" range. S2. Move or shoot, must be in front arc).
Glade riders get a big points drop.
Wardancers should drop ASF dance and get it as a regular special rule. I6, with ASF, plus the three other dances and Tattoos = easily 18 points.
Wild Riders should get 2 attacks standard.
Treekin get a small points drop, and cheaper champion. (Or same cost, stubborn, ministrangleroot).
Warhawks can move (not march) through the trees no penalty, and get a significant points drop.
Waywatchers can choose to use Lethal shot (as now) or Arrow rain (x2 shots).

Treeman has lower base cost and can be upgraded, with options being Treewhack, Boulder bowling (18" range cannon), strangleroot, Rock throwing (S3(9) stone thrower) extra thick bark (+1 to scaly skin), Limber (-1 T, +1 Initiative and Attacks for free). I mean, lots of options for the Treeman.

Tree of Life:
Kind of like a Cauldron of Blood or War Altar. Except it provides awesome buffs to help our survivability (All buffs are 18" range, and give regen 5+ (3+ if Forest SPirit), d6+1 wounds back, Shield of Thorns, etc, and it's guarded by two branchnyphs and a branchwraith (who can be upgraded as normal). Additionally, it has stranglroot, T10 at range, and can summon D3 Dryads on a leadership test in each round of Close combat it is engaged (rolled for at the start of the combat phase, and these dryads stay with the Tree even after the combat is over, actually increasing it's wounds). Additionally, any attempts to cast using Athel Loren get an additional +1 as long as the Tree is in play. I'd say 300 points basic, with whatever upgrades you want to throw on the nymphs and wraith after. The Tree is also M5, but cannot march. I'd say that this should be a rare choice.

Magic:
I actually like the way that the Lore of Athel Loren is now. It has lots of great spells that can protect our fragile units of boost their killyness. I hope they keep the same theme, and just adjust the casting levels a little bit when the new book comes out.

[rhys]

I'd like scouts to be cheaper/ retain glade guard longbows

I think wardancers would be more useful in 8th if they permanently got ASF/4++ rules, and could simply choose between +1a and KB without the one turn at a time restriction.

Glade riders just need a big drop in points, maybe 18pts ish

EG need a big boost to make them an elite elven infantry unit (think how good swordmasters, PG, lions are for 15pts) or drop down to 9pts

What i think we'll probably get is some form of army wide special rule like the new elven armies that either gives our troops a big combat boost or makes our shooting truly devastating!

[hamicron]

What Id like to see for our WarDancers is them gaining ASF permanently and replacing the lost dance with one that makes them either Unbreakable or Stubborn.

Much of the book needs to drop a few points, particularly Glade Riders and Eternal Guard. Eternal Guard also need to be either a core unit or a proper special unit rather than straddling both.

Forest Walkers should let us add or substract 1 from the dice roll when anyone first enters a mysterious forest.

WayWatchers need a bit of a boost. I like Wolfmans suggestion of a rain of arrows!

Lore of Athel Loren either needs to become much more generally useful (less terrain dependent) or spellsinger should be able to take from Lore of Beasts and Life as well.

I would also like some sort of buffing unit in the book. Iwas going to suggest some sort of Tree but Wolfman has beaten me to it!

[Salamander]

First off, Don't download the book. Buy it! Downloading it is illegal...

Lore of shadow's should also be available to our spell weavers. It makes sence to me since we Asrai are such wonderfull and gifted in the shadows.

[Turin]

And bring back Zoats ...
I'd love that !

[Hjiryon]

Off the top of my head:

We need viable RnF troops. Drop Eternal Guard to around 9 points - or boost them to be worth 12 points and give us another cheap elf infantry unit.
Dryads should become RnF and drop to around 10 points - unless their save is changed to a ward or regenerate and they're given the option of full command (dryad standard bearer? Huh?), in which case I suppose their price is acceptable.
Other contesters for needing a point drop or performance increase:
Glade Riders (compare to Dark Riders/Ellyrion Reavers).
Wild Riders (need to move in larger units to be rank breakers now and hence lose a lot of the advantages of fastcav - if they do so, compare to dragon princes).
Treekin (65 points per model is much too expensive - a good deal of the reason I don't like these have to do with the models, but the price (in points and £) is too high as well.
Waywatchers (compare to Shades)
Maybe controversial, but I really do not like paying almost 300 points for the treeman either (I'm not sure it's overcosted as much as recent monsters have been too cheap, though).

We need a serious revision of our magic items - it's telling that many of the items in the BRB are better (and cheaper!) than our own.

Forest spirit saves need revision. Change it to regenerate (5+).
Glade Guard Longbows should be given more liberally to other units in the army - probably not mounted archers, though.

Lore of Athel Loren needs to be dropped (I feel lore of life is very similar in theme now) or be brought up to standards compared to rulebook lores. I could see Treesinging moving to be a the synergy effect, for instance.
Our level 1 and 2 mage, at least the spellsingers, need access to magic other than our own lore - unless that lore will actually be comparable to BRB lores. Some variety in the magic phase without tossing out 250 points for a level 4 would be nice.

Finally, personal a gripe:
We need to not be eaten by forests - especially our free forest! As it stands, RAW states that 5 out of 6 forests are magical; life for Wood Elves suddenly got very random.

So, the above would be a start.

[Finbulvetr]

Lore of shadow's should also be available to our spell weavers. It makes sence to me since we Asrai are such wonderfull and gifted in the shadows.

I've always thought that Lore of Shadows would make a great improvement to our movement (this, honestly speaking, I thought while 7th lores were available, I don't really know now since I couldn't give an eye to the BRB...)
Is atual L. of Shadows so sneaky with extra movement tricks? If so, having access to it will be just lovely. As many stated before, leting both our hero level and lord levels mages have access to other lores plus AL lore is IMHO necessary...

Salut!

EDIT: On a second thought, and seeing how the game's turning towards simplicity (or so they say...), we'll be probably not seeing so many skirmishers on our next AB

[Kerstmanneke82]

What I would want is a more agressive list for the Lore of Athel Loren. Or like the Skaven; two different lores. Maybe one that does more damage, the other that focuses on our shooting / movement.

What I also would want is to have a chariot back. Since blocks of troops are bigger and bigger and we Wood Elves only need charge something which we are sure will break and flee in the next turn, a chariot would be a nice help.

Also, something to make the treeman's initiative higher or let him hit first. If you charge, our lousy initiative of 2 or 3 is a bit on the slow side. And that's somewhere near 300 points I'm talking about. Think about charging a block of Chaos Knights, no forest ward saves to begin with (magical attacks) and quite a good strength would give it a good chance of not surviving a charge at all.

And finally, that Forest Spirits are not harmed by forests.

[~Glim~]

by Salamander » Today, 09:0

First off, Don't download the book. Buy it! Downloading it is illegal...

Asking 70 euro for rules is illegal.
I'm not that rich and i already spent a couple of hundred euros on my army. . It's kind of like giving a hand and taking the whole arm off.

Back on topic,

I hear most people argree on the 5+ regen save for forest spirits.
Hope they will remove any size restriction. Or second rank can strike as normal (2 attacks)
To give them more bite.

Hope sincerely that archers remain small and mobile, not horde shooting army style.
That said, I am hoping for some small improvement, no S4, instead fire on the march and quick to fire.

Glade riders should be a WM hunter, including fast cav, plus something of protection from shooting and magic. (2x multiple shot?) Move to special choice.

Wild riders (forest spirit), no fast cav, no magic res, instead something useful for flank/rear charges. Say, negate steadfast while in flank/rear. Always fear and 2 attacks. (this would make fear a forest spirit ability)

Waywatchers, deploy anywhere except enemy deployment zone, even in LOS. And include Heroic killing blow always, even on long range. Receive -1 to be hit always, even in CC.

Treekin, drop points, 4+ regen save, no scaly skin.

Treeman, drop points, 2+ regen save, no scaly skin. (bring on the flaming warmachines!)

Warhawks, drop points (a lot)

Eternal guard, drop points to 10, 4+ armour, move to core.

Wardancers, more special attacks, 5+ Ward save, no magic resis. points about the same. or 4+ ward and up the points.
The ASF rule would be cool and in the line of the fluff. So fast and whirling.....

Great Eagle, Unicorn, same.
Great Stag an extra wound.

Army rules, reroll on what the forest does to your unit standing in it. Quick to fire (no -1 for move and shoot)
Or Fire on the March for the whole army.

This way the entire army remains its maneuverability, we get a cheap good block and I hope Magic items will be representing the rest of the army.
No half baked ward saves and likewise items, those are useless.
Magic should be upped similar to those of the standard lores, still non aggressive but something you can do a lot of tricks with. Tricks that annoy the enemy to a large extend. Hoping for a cheaper movement spell than Call of the Hunt.

And this concludes our round of brainstorming.

[The Virgin Forest]

I'd like to see waywatchers become a real threat, with their true super scout rules, and give them multiple shots and glade guard bows - something that will make everyone go "AWESOME!".

Wardancers with a 4+ Ward and ASF, so its only +1A or KB, I like the sound of that.

I'd like to see the Eternal Guard killed off, instead let them be true bodyguards and available to our highbornes - like Orions Hounds.

Just dump the Lore of Athel Loren, a little Treesinging base spell and access for both weavers and singers to Beast, Life and Death - lets go full circle.

Lets dump the price of Treemen, or at least match their efficiency to other monsters - just make them even tougher. A T10 treeman with an S10 d6 damage Treewhack - and make the ancient truly fearsome. Maybe a caster upgrade with life - and throw in some extra wounds for good measure.

Wardancer heroes are heroic, so should get Heroic Killing Blow - stands to reason, doesn't it?

Forest Spirit ward saves are too difficult to handle, so just make it a straight 5+ ward.

Wild Riders.. Just make them cheaper.

Glade riders.. Glade guard bows and a price reduction.

Waywatcher characters shouldn't forget how to hit precisely, just because they take magic bows. Perhaps these paragons of the woods should come with built in Bows of Loren too. A hero able to fire 3 lethal shots, now I'll start considering the little bastards.

Oh, and give tree kin an extra wound. They're undead trees, they shouldn't just fall apart like a flabby Ogre - and cheaper

Asking 70 euro for rules is illegal.
I'm not that rich and i already spent a couple of hundred euros on my army. . It's kind of like giving a hand and taking the whole arm off.

Stealing is stealing, no matter the cause

[~Glim~]

something that will make everyone go "AWESOME!".

Like Sniper?
Pick out any character in a unit and shoot at them.

Wardancers with a 4+ Ward and ASF, so its only +1A or KB, I like the sound of that

This will increase the models points.

Wardancer heroes are heroic, so should get Heroic Killing Blow - stands to reason, doesn't it?

If you are willing to pay good points on it, sure.
I'm not interested in overpowered units, just in powerfull or usefull.

I really want to get our tricky army back

[rhys]

Pheonix guard have asf and 4+ ward and cost 15 points.
All our stuff is currently overprices relative to the new elf books

[rhys]

Also while im grumbling about HE and DE prices (ahem 175pt war hydra, 6pt spearmen)

the high elves have a 40pt bow that gives you 3 str 5 shots, can we have one please?

[dheu22]

Im glad someone made this post. I hope GW reads it. Im sure they have good stuff in mind, because we REALLY need a rewrite.

Def Cheaper points OR make our units have more substance in the 8th. ASF for WDs. Talismanic Tattoos 5+ ward save. Forest Spirit 5+ Regen is nice but 5+ ward is cool too. Like the daemons save. Not being able to use against magic weapons is retarded. They are Magical trees born from the winds of magic themselves. They should cancel magic weapons if anything.

Spellsingers need access to more lores. Forest Dragons available to Nobles and SPELLWEAVERS/Spellsingers.

Definately Better Magic Items that dont ALWAYS have a dark side to them. Keep a good number of them as well just make them cheaper. The Daemons of Choas has similar items serving the same purpose just better and cheaper (figure that out)

Give Wood Elves a Darker feel. We hate anything not Asrai or Forest Spirit.

Are units are good they just need more special abilities to match their price. Like the WDs and WHR WR...treekin definately cheaper.

I like the S10 T10 treeman especially with a Initiative of TWO <<he gets chopped down way to quick for 285.

ALL our MODELS need to be $cheaper$ and move to plastic...

I agree with most things said about Waywatchers and Wardancer lords and all that said above. 24 pts a model is too much for the now "regular scouts" with KB and -1 shooting. These 2 are my favorite units, i field 10 of each, wardancers are good for one turn of combat now thats it, and thats only if they attack at the flank of an engaged unit. Waywatchers CANT flee anymore lol pretty much all charge rolls from anything fast will catch them off the charge if youre within your 15" for killing blow.

Our army strived on offense in previous editions. All the rules that gave us any sort of lethality have been stripped.
Fixing our Offense to surpass others and making our defense a bit more efficient on certain units is necessary to have a chance in the 8th. If they dont drop the point values at least make them worth their weight in gold.

They built a lot of weakness into the current Wood Elf army, however our offensive capability and manuverability made up for it. With 2D6 charges, no march blocking, no negating rank bonus, no killing front rank to minimize return attacks and not attacking first with charge we are a very underclassed army who's weakness are very easily exploited.

*EDIT*

WHAT IS UP WITH ORION ...575 points for a General that kills himself. Has anyone ever read Archavon the ever chosen rules for about 100 pts more?? the guy is unstoppable.
Drycha and sisters of twilight need some thought.
We need some sick named special characters. Make one a beast lord with a choice of 1 of 3 beasts for the army. One an unbreakable Forest Bear, the size of a treeman with some sick survivability. Used to tie up units. Impact hits. Pretty much a steam tank minus the artilery. Make one a Forest Cat. 3d6 str 4 attacks. Decent survivability. One a pack of Forest Wolves or somekind of warhawk. The beast master has the ability to fire multiple shots at a unit engaged with his beasts. If they are more then 12 inches away then something bad happens.

Some kind of level 4 Spellweaver with some sick magic items and abilities like Malagor the Dark Omen at a very reasonable price.

Some kind of sick Treeman Ancient Named special character with lots of goodies and near impossible to kill, but is very flammable...

champion dryads and treekin should certainly be able to have 25pts of spites.

[Eleven]

I would like to see Wood Elves become neutral... I mean they hate everyone equally. Just stay out of our forests. But, sadly I don't think my wish will ever come true.

PS: The above poster really likes the word 'sick'.

[~Glim~]

I second sick that. I was very sickly surprised when I read that we were considered sickly good. I Understand that they don't have enough "good" sick armies. But still, goes very much against our sick fluff.

Enough of that sick stuff.

dheus22 makes some excellent points. Always liked to play offensive, maneuverable and tricky. Hope this theme comes back in our new AB. Bigger block is what they want to sell, so make EG, Treekin and WD cheaper. My biggest wish is for an reliable army. Now half our army has Imu to Psy, which makes it reliable.

I really like the thought of a darker feel to the woodies. Don't really like it when they are called tree hugging hippies. And I like a mix of very different (specialized) units, like we have now. I usually don't yield gladeguard, with a few acceptions. But in the new rules we are forced to go all out on shooting. All an offensive army needs is protection from shooting and magic, until our units are in CC. I liked MSU and hope this is once again possible with some changes.

edit: maybe no stat change on the treeman, just make them a lot cheaper. So you can 3 or 4 in a 2000 point battle. That will sell, at least I would buy more.

[Kaepora Gaebora]

I have a hunch that they are planing to move the Asrai back towards a magic oriented army (not a good idea in 8th edition GW if you do read this. not.a.good.idea). Cheaper spell singers that might take lv3 is what I feel they might go towards.

Something I think they should give our army is a camouflage save. Why are our glade guard wearing leaves at all if they get no benefit? Why should our men be as easy to shoot at as a clumsy peasant? In our fluff you shouldn't be able to see an elf unless we've only shot out one of your eyes.

[Finbulvetr]

Now that I come to think on it, we'll be probably having some way to "recognize" forests. Either a spell, an item or an army-wide ability, it's fluffy that some guys which spent all their lives in such a magical forest as Athel Loren can recognize the threat in the woods...

[~Glim~]

Something I think they should give our army is a camouflage save.

Now that is a good idea, like the forest stalkers -1 to be hit by shooting, only as an army rule. Except the Treeman cause he's huge.

Now that I come to think on it, we'll be probably having some way to "recognize" forests

Still think a re-roll on the effect is sufficient. Forest spirits should be immune to all effects, good or bad. They ARE the forest. Or when a forest hits the board we can decide what it is, without rolling for it.
On this moment I don't know if our free forest is all that good. They can come up with something better.

Maybe this: when rolling on the random terrain chart and playing with or against a Woodelf player all doubles count as choosing a mysterious forest.
It's a small chance, but might be helpful on getting an extra forest on the table.

On the army, I feel it would be nice to have some Spite Swarms. They could tie units up for a while. Forest spirit of course. And some fluff that states that they don't die, but get sent back to the Mother earth tree. You know... the big tree from the Ariel and Orion story.

Also I never liked the fluff about WR being forest spirits. Come on, they are elves, not big bad forest horrors! Opposite goes for the forest dragon, he lives in the woods, apparently wants to do battle to preserve Athel Loren and is green!

That said, it would be nice to have something like a Hydra that is mountable for our Spellweaver. Or ones like those Chaos Dwarf mounts. To make our wizard feel more powerful instead of hiding cowardly in some unit, trying not to be noticed.

[The Virgin Forest]

Why should all forests be 100% harmonious? Think of those corrupted by warpstone and defecated by beastmen, even our own forest spirits doesn't see eye to eye, when it comes to the pointy ears e.g. Durthu and Drycha.

I'd love to see the forests (and elves) become even more twisted and 'lost'. Let the elven halls be worm infested holes lit with illusions and glamour reminiscent of the ancient elven splendor, but let reality be grim beyond tragic. I see the realm of wood elves as *dreams lost*, a race wholly abandoned by its peers, hunted by greedy dwarves. An insular race stalwartly denying to see its tragic downfall, thoroughly twisted and desensitised to the other children of the old ones by their symbiotic relationship with the forest.

I second the neutral army thing. Woodies should see the other races as invasive species and have no concern for moral or outside relations, better guide the chaos invasion towards an abominable city than fight them on sight - and then when the horde has done its rampaging and made room for the forest to grow back, they should descend upon the chaos horde and destroy them while they're licking their wounds. Cold, calculating and heartless - and then followed by wild and uninhibited celebrations.

[Mòrthûr]

In the big rulebook stands that Ariel thinks isolation is not good for us, and so we join the forces of order in battle against the forces of destruction.
Why should they leave this pad, that don't even stands in our AB?

Yes, in our army book stands we're hunting down beastmen a couple of hundred years ago but nothing about really joining order.

[Forest Primeval]

All the changes we really need have already been addressed (specifically a points reduction).

One wish-list item, though. Forest Dragon. What's that? We have one, you say? True, but I'm not all for giving them to our heroes (that's an Asur thing), or even to our 'weaver. I'd like to see the option to take a Forest Dragon as a Rare choice. They are creatures of the forest, and they are quite old and wise. Hell, our AB even states that the dragons of Athel Loren have "thrived and multiplied." I think it'd be awesome to be able to use a Forest Dragon like the Druchii use Hydras.

How about something like this:

Forest Dragon - 300 points
M6 WS6 BS0 S6 T6 W6 I3 A5 Ld8
Large Target, Terror, Fly, Poison Breath, Scaly Skin (3+), Forest Spirit (possibly even Tree-singing?)

I think it's only reasonable that a dragon which has been changed by the forest is considered a Forest Spirit. Also, I think Poison Breath should be S2, no armor saves (as opposed to S2, -3 modifier; look at the Skaven Pestilent Breath spell - it's the same thing as poisoned breath, really. If I had it my way, it'd be more like their Cloud of Corruption - S5, no armor save). Now will this happen? No, probably not. But I'd like to see it.

[Greenspite]

'All forest spirits hate opponents with flame.' Yes, yes, yes. I have been considering this for a campaign house rule where I will be GM.
I would add Blessing of Ariel should regenerate damage from Flaming, or that we are given a buff for a character or unit to give a ward against flaming.

Pipe dream time:

Forest/Spite swarms?
(I've always wanted to run a killer squirrel swarm, but that is just me)

Hounds (warhounds) to accompany WR, moving as fast cav.

Shapechanger Dryad and 'Alter' UNITS. What appear to be dryads turn into scout archers an vice versa. What appear to be x infantry turn into bears or other dangerous animals. Sneakiness back in the bag.

New uber monster: Forest Elemental - equivalent to a Greater demon, a terrifying giant akin to what we saw in Hellboy II.

Set -up terrain - replace our piddly free wood with someting beneficial that gives a buff or a dangerous obstacle. Tree of Life is a nice idea, how about a Mirror Pool of the Hidden Ways (random teleporter), Mere of the Lost (creates a mist obscuring LOS and itself is impassable).

All WE to get bonus -1 for woods. Remember we used to be able to hide completely. I would include the big models, there look like tress, they are among trees.

Guaranteed we will get new characters - GW love this, they can sell new single expensive models.

Anyway, I will happily run some or all of the above in 'narrative' games I plan to play, though the opposition will get buffs too.

Agree, that we should not have sympathy for all forests a 'Cleanse Wood' spell would be luverly.

[Forest Primeval]

Forest/Spite swarms?
(I've always wanted to run a killer squirrel swarm, but that is just me)

I rather like this idea. Spite Swarms with magical attacks and the Forest Spirit special rule! Swarm with a ward save? Yes!