Warhawk Riders vs Great Eagles for warmachine hunting?

[Arachnomaniak]

Hey Everyone,

I'm pretty new to the game and I've been purchasing a few models to start my army. I've watched a few games at our local store and many players seem to be warmachine heavy since the new rules. The standard game they're playing is 2250 and I'm wondering about the advandages/disadvandages of taking Warhawk Riders or Great Eagles at this point level?

There's a major points difference between the 2 with the Great Eagles running 50 points per model and the Warhawk Riders running 40 points each, with 3 required for a unit totalling 120 points. With this points difference I could take 2 Great Eagles for the price of one Warhawk Rider unit and get double the manouverability. Is it worth investing in the Warhwark Riders over the Great Eagles?

Thanks!

[Forest Primeval]

Is it worth investing in the Warhwark Riders over the Great Eagles?

More often than not, no. There is only one valid reason for taking Warhawks over Eagles (when it comes to war machine hunting), in my opinion - you've maxed out your Rare percentage on Treemen and/or Waywatchers already. Because Warhawks are Special, you could still have a mage-hunting/war machine hunting unit. However, I still feel it's best left to our Great Eagles.

Compare them. Eagles are just better (T4, W3), cheaper, and you don't have to run them in the same unit. There are two areas in which Warhawks are better than Eagles. Warhawk Riders can shoot, and they can hit and run. That's about it.

[Drool_bucket]

Compare them. Eagles are just better (T4, W3), cheaper, and you don't have to run them in the same unit. There are two areas in which Warhawks are better than Eagles. Warhawk Riders can shoot, and they can hit and run. That's about it.

Well, Warhawks do put out more attacks per point than Eagles, 3 STR 4 (including stomp) at 40 points versus 3 STR 4 (again, including Stomp) at 50 points. Eagles are certainly tougher with +1T and +1 Wnd, however. WHR do have a miserable 6+ armor save.

One thing that has me considering taking WHR against an upcoming Dwarf army is the ability to possible get the Sig Beast spell on them, which would make them STR 5 on the charge and T4 for that one round of shooting. they'd be exposed to.

But in the end, if you have the rare points left, get Eagles first. With charges being random I'd rather have two shots at getting the distance needed on the 2d6 than just one roll.

[Forest Primeval]

Well, Warhawks do put out more attacks per point than Eagles, 3 STR 4 (including stomp) at 40 points versus 3 STR 4 (again, including Stomp) at 50 points.

Yes, but it's still irrelevant for two reasons. You must buy three Warhawks (minimum unit size), and regardless, only two monstrous models can ever attack a war machine. So unit-to-unit, GEs are superior. Good catch on the 6+ save, but I still think I'd rather have T4.

One thing that has me considering taking WHR against an upcoming Dwarf army is the ability to possible get the Sig Beast spell on them, which would make them STR 5 on the charge and T4 for that one round of shooting. they'd be exposed to

But wouldn't the Great Eagles become S5, T5? In that case, they'd still be better.

[PaW]

Just a note:
No stomp vs warmachines. The crew is irrelvant
Stomp = infantry only.

[Drool_bucket]

ah, learning something new every day.

no more than 2 WHR per close combat...

Stomp doesn't work.

Thanks.

Yeah, Eagles are king.

[Allendor]

Eagles can't shoot the crew (or anything), warhawk riders can.
No crew no effective war machine.

[Hillbilly Carl]

Warhawks are cooler but I agree with most of the other people who are saying that eagles are the way to go. Its too bad, I'd love to use a unit of warhawk riders but they just don't cut it. Maybe if they had similar stats to wild riders...

[Azaireal]

Eagles can't shoot the crew (or anything), warhawk riders can.
No crew no effective war machine.

You don't shoot the crew. You shoot the war machine. In close combat, you fight the crew who despite being single models on foot are not infantry.

Warhawks are cooler but I agree with most of the other people who are saying that eagles are the way to go. Its too bad, I'd love to use a unit of warhawk riders but they just don't cut it. Maybe if they had similar stats to wild riders...

Naked elves are unfortunately not wearing armor. If they had some more protection, they would be fabulous. Unfortunately, we have the scout-ish version of a Pegasus Knights on 'different' horses.

[Greenspite]

Depressing - nice looking unit, very impressive on the field, and yet I have had to have a reason to paint mine. The above analysis is extremely useful however.

Still potential as mage hunters though?

[Hillbilly Carl]

Plus when you shoot a war machine you use the toughness of the machine (usually 7) but when you strike in hand to hand you use the toughness of the crew (3 or 4). Shooting them is much less effective.

They are a little better at mage hunting with their hit and run technique. You could charge, target the mage and hopefully kill it and then retreat with whatever you have left after return attacks (not much). With an eagle you would then be stuck in combat.

[~Glim~]

however. WHR do have a miserable 6+ armor save.

Warhawks lost that save due to the errata, they only follow the Flying Cavalry rules stated in the rulebook.

[Tuhis]

however. WHR do have a miserable 6+ armor save.

Warhawks lost that save due to the errata, they only follow the Flying Cavalry rules stated in the rulebook.

And as far as i know the rules don't say anything about warhawks losing their +1 to armour save which they get for being mounted. They are treated as monstrous cavalry, right?


Also note that the warhawks are skirmishers and have a -1 to hit modifier if the enemy warmachine fires at them. If I were to choose, I'd take both two eagles and a unit of warhawks to hunt the enemy warmachines. They both have their pros and cons, and by only comparing their stats they end up being equally good on the paper.

[owniscool1993]

uv got the stomp rules wrong
u just can't stomp anything on a smaller base than urs

[Greenspite]

'uv got the stomp rules wrong
u just can't stomp anything on a smaller base than urs' - hmmm? That would mean most things that can stomp, can never stomp. Forgive me me as I have yet to purchase 8th Ed, but isn't that nock-about-arrowhead?

[Kertilien]

Stomp is restricted to Infantry, Swarms, and War Beasts.


Although Great Eagles are always a good purchase, Warhawk Riders have several advantages over them. As Flying Cavalry, they are also Fast Cavalry. As such, they gain a 12" Vanguard move at the beginning of the game, which will help them get into position much faster than Great Eagles. They also gain Feigned Flight, making them much more effective at redirecting charges and such. Because there are three models, they're much more resistant to Bolt Throwers, Cannons, etc. - while they wouldn't have any real fighting strength after losing one or two models, you could still hide the survivor(s) to protect their Victory Points (under the new rules, a unit doesn't give any points up until it's wiped out).

Redirecting and March Blocking aren't very effective under the new rules, so what do your Great Eagles do when the enemy doesn't have War Machines? With only two or three S4 attacks, a Great Eagle will rarely manage to kill an enemy character. However, with four to eight S4 attacks on the charge, three Warhawk Riders (including Champion) stand a fairly good chance of dropping an enemy mage or BSB.

[mrtspence]

Well, actually, with 3 attacks and a stomp, Eagles are probably just as good at T3 killing mages (most mages) and the like (3 attacks, something like 2.1 wounds with the stomp) and don't cost you as many points or compete with Treekin in the special slot.

[Hooba]

Well, actually, with 3 attacks and a stomp, Eagles are probably just as good at T3 killing mages (most mages) and the like (3 attacks, something like 2.1 wounds with the stomp) and don't cost you as many points or compete with Treekin in the special slot.

Just a curious observation/question, as I have seen similar statements recently. As far as competing for specials, do people really think that is going to be an issue when we have up to 50% allowance? I don't think I have ever gotten close to that.

Not that I disagree about the Eagle. I think he will be superior.

[Forest Primeval]

As far as competing for specials, do people really think that is going to be an issue when we have up to 50% allowance?

For Wood Elves? No. Rares, on the other hand...

[Joelatron]

eagles can also be used to declare charges on fleeing stuff-flee stuff off the board

I prefer eagles. Cheaper, can be in different places, and not a big enough threat until too late

[~Glim~]

They should switch them, warhawks to rare, eagle to special.

[Herald]

eagles can also be used to declare charges on fleeing stuff-flee stuff off the board

Fleeing units that get charged are now destroyed where they stand, instead of having to flee further. FYI.

[JOO]

They should switch them, warhawks to rare, eagle to special.

Yeah, lets go ahead and put the final stake in the heart of the Sethalya style and do that...

Edit: I guess I'll add my two cents while I'm here

WhR:

Pros:
-more models
-more wounds
-more attacks
-armor save
-skirmish
-fast cav
-vangurad
-hit and run
-harder to kill with siege
-larger marchblocking area

Con:
-T3
-S4 only on charge

Eagle:

Pros:
-S4 always
-T4

Cons:
-siege/shooting will kill it in 1 or 2 turn if something shoots it
-less attacks
-less wounds
-no AS

I may have gone a little excessive on the WhR pros, but they really have a lot more going for them

-JOO

[mrtspence]

Well, actually, with 3 attacks and a stomp, Eagles are probably just as good at T3 killing mages (most mages) and the like (3 attacks, something like 2.1 wounds with the stomp) and don't cost you as many points or compete with Treekin in the special slot.

Just a curious observation/question, as I have seen similar statements recently. As far as competing for specials, do people really think that is going to be an issue when we have up to 50% allowance? I don't think I have ever gotten close to that.

Not that I disagree about the Eagle. I think he will be superior.

2 Units of 6 Treekin will use up a LOT of points. If you want anything like Wildriders in your list, there will not be room to spare.

Also, You can fit 2 Treemen and an Eagle in a 2500 point game, and I don't see people taking more than one or two of either Treemen or Eagles.

Also, JOO, the pros of the Great Eagle that you mentioned (Higher S and T) are incredibly, incredibly big advantages over Warhawk Riders. That T4 is going to go a hell of a lot farther to keeping it alive than the 6+ save on WhR's. S4 means that in subsequent rounds of combat, they have a superior chance of doing damage and piercing armour. Eagles are also cheaper (huge point), smaller (less chance of being hit by scatters, charges, more maneuverable, etc.), and much, much less vulnerable to arrows and the like. They really aren't more vulnerable to siege weapons per-say, as a stonethrower that doesn't directly hit an eagle is not likely to hurt it, whereas it could easily kill several WhR.

[~Glim~]

What he said.

Not so bad as you stated. I use my fliers against Warmachines and lone wizards. For this purpose my eagle is the better choice. It just fits easier in my army.
And you have to agree, the warhawks mostly got worse, while the Eagle only got better.


Page 18 – Flying Cavalry
Ignore this special rule.

Why is everybody still convinced that they get a 6+ Ar save?

Edit: this thread is named Warhawk Riders vs Great Eagles for warmachine hunting, right?
No stomps for either, no outnumbering, max 2 monstrous models can attack warmachines.