Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

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Re: Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

Postby NewbishDelight » July 30th, 2010, 21:0

Strongbow wrote:
Kertilien wrote:When you enter a Forest, there's a five-in-six chance that it will be a Magical Forest. Four of those five Magical Forests have detrimental effects and only one involves a Dangerous Terrain test. Ergo, half of all Forests on the table will have some negative on you after you enter them. The Blood Forest and Wildwood are particularly bad, as they can inflict D6 S4 hits on the unit(s) inside them, which can be pretty rough on our small, fragile units.


So, I'm wondering how many of those forest mushrooms the GW staff ate before they forgot to balance out this little rule.

Really? REALLY?! It's dangerous for woodelves to enter into a forested area?!

I hope they eratta this soon, or come out with an AB for us that addresses this issue (and the numberous others) toute de suite.



There are lots of forests that aren't particularly friendly for WElves, including some parts of Athel Loren itself. Others might be infested with Chaos, or jungle rather than forest, or contaminated with necromantic magic.
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Re: Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

Postby LordTobiothan » July 30th, 2010, 21:0

There are lots of forests that aren't particularly friendly for WElves, including some parts of Athel Loren itself. Others might be infested with Chaos, or jungle rather than forest, or contaminated with necromantic magic.


Athel Loren is supposed to be a huge forest and wood elves are present in many other forests around the warhammer world, saying 80% of them isn't wood elf friendly doesn't give an accurate representation, and no they cant be jungles that's a completely separate terrain piece
 
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Re: Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

Postby Strongbow » July 30th, 2010, 21:0

Grumble...
 
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Re: Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

Postby Hjiryon » July 30th, 2010, 22:0

Kertilien wrote:I think Eternal Guard compare rather well to High Elf Spearmen. Our second attack in base contact balances out the extra rank they get, so the only difference is them hitting 75% of the time when we only hit 66% of the time - a difference so small that it only adds up to one additional casualty when two fully ranked Hordes are going at it.

It's true that the Eternal Guard cost more, but that's because they can do more. The only thing the Spearmen are good for is putting out large quantities of S3 attacks to the front - to the side or rear, they only get a handful of attacks and likely lose Steadfast. Eternal Guard fight with two attacks to the side or rear and are usually Stubborn - they'll serve well as an anchor regardless of the enemy's attempts to outmaneuver them. Eternal Guard also have access to fourteen Magic Standards, whereas the Spearmen can't take one at all.

I can't imagine why you'd want to field Eternal Guard as a Horde, though. Hordes usually have so few ranks that a regular block of Eternal Guard would have no trouble negating their Steadfast, setting them up to be broken and wiped out in a single turn by a Hammer unit.


HE can get a banner for their spearmen - and I think they should, considering what other core units they have and what banners are available to them.
Also, disrupting ranks does not remove steadfast - read the section in the BRB carefully on that count - there's a difference between Rank Bonus (a function under combat resolution) and having ranks.
The argument that EG are better because they have more attacks to the side is, at best, a weak one.
 
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Re: Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

Postby LordTobiothan » July 31st, 2010, 00:0

Especially since EG are a special choice that barely compare to a core choice
 
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Re: Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

Postby ~Glim~ » July 31st, 2010, 02:0

Comment/gripe: I really don't want to see GW produce yet another unit of models for me to have to go out and buy. I wouldn't mind seeing a truly new unit, but I don't really want to see a new RnF unit as a response to the broke Eternal Guard unit. Just fix the ET so that they can be viable in 8th, and let me keep the models I have, thank you very much.


You better count on GW wanting you to go out and buy more models.

But I totally agree with you that most of our units just need a little update to be in fighting shape again. And I hope we still can do MSU with a new rulebook. Never liked bowlines and every other army can already do the large blocks thingy. One (EG's) or maybe two (dryads) ranked units would be nice.

I do hope woodies stay original.
 
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Re: Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

Postby Azaireal » July 31st, 2010, 03:0

Page 49 – Spearmen, Martial Prowess
Ignore the last sentence.
--games workshop faq HE page 1.

Ignore "They fight in three ranks to the front, and two ranks on the charge." Go read the GW document on horde warfare for more information on how they believe HE spears fight...

Final note on HE: High Elves get one magical banner up to 25 points on one unit of chore choice in any given army.

On the plus side:

Try fighting some Empire Spears with your EG.
Same set up as the initial fight but Empire instead, or DE Spears or Night Goblins.

EG, although at 12 points each, hold up pretty good against those armies. How about repetitive combat against those hordes? Not so good.

But then again, hordes are pretty much a glass canon in an of themselves. (AKA, MLU instead of single hordes)
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Re: Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

Postby Hjiryon » July 31st, 2010, 04:0

Azaireal wrote:Final note on HE: High Elves get one magical banner up to 25 points on one unit of chore choice in any given army.

On the plus side:

Try fighting some Empire Spears with your EG.
Same set up as the initial fight but Empire instead, or DE Spears or Night Goblins.

EG, although at 12 points each, hold up pretty good against those armies. How about repetitive combat against those hordes? Not so good.

But then again, hordes are pretty much a glass canon in an of themselves. (AKA, MLU instead of single hordes)


I don't see why high elves would elect to buy a magical banner for any other core unit (aka for their archers), so I'd count on the spearelves having it.

Also, let's try DE spears here...
The units strike at the same time, so assuming neither gets the charge penalty (aka "only" fighting in three ranks):
EG: 51 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+. So 51 * 0.33 = 16.83 wounds. After 5+ armor saves: 11.22 kills.
Dark elves: 40 attacks with rerolls hitting on 4+ with rerolls wounding on 4+ - So 40 * 0.375 = 15. After 5+ armor saves: 10 kills. Yes I left out the champion to get a nice number... I don't think that 1 extra attack would change much.
Result on average rolls: EG wins first round of combat by 1, neither unit is stubborn. In the following rounds of combat, the dark elf spears will suffer from not having hatred anymore.

- On the other hand, DE spears cost around half of what EG does.
 
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Re: Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

Postby Kertilien » July 31st, 2010, 07:0

Hjiryon wrote:HE can get a banner for their spearmen - and I think they should, considering what other core units they have and what banners are available to them.
Also, disrupting ranks does not remove steadfast - read the section in the BRB carefully on that count - there's a difference between Rank Bonus (a function under combat resolution) and having ranks.
The argument that EG are better because they have more attacks to the side is, at best, a weak one.


Sorry, I took a quick look at the entry for HE Spearmen before posting, but missed the Banner rule at the bottom of the page.


It's not that the additional attacks to the flank or rear are going to win them fights, it's that those attacks, combined with Ld9 and easy access to Stubborn, lets them do something that other Spearmen (and most Core units) are incapable of: putting up a fight once an enemy reaches their flank or rear.

Normally, if someone fields a large unit (or even a Horde) of Spearmen, they need two more units to protect its flanks. An exposed flank can easily lead to the large unit being wiped out by a small unit of flankers (say, beasts or light cavalry) without having a chance to bring all those attacks to bear. Even if they don't break, with only a handful of attacks to direct towards the flankers, they may well be stuck in combat for the rest of the game. Although they can now make a combat reform even if they lose, they won't want to expose their flank to the stronger units in front of them.

Eternal Guard, on the other hand, have the Leadership (often Stubborn) to avoid breaking when charged by flankers and the attacks to see them off without being caught. Instead of being forced to devote units to protecting their flanks, we can send them forward alone to tie something up or to set it up for a counter-charge. For a high-cost, low-unit-count army like Wood Elves, that's invaluable.

In that respect, an Eternal Guard Horde might actually be viable - not as a fighting unit, but as an exceedingly large and resilient tarpit. If you march that one Horde forward by itself, it could easily engage three or four enemy units (up to two to the front, followed by two more moving in on their flanks). The Eternal Guard certainly aren't going to win that fight, but they don't need to; tying half the enemy army up so the rest of our army can focus on their remaining units would be invaluable. With a modest investment in defensive support, starting with The Rhymer's Harp and Flesh to Stone, they may well hold up for the entire game, too. It's an expensive unit, but you don't give up a single VP unless they're wiped out.

Magic support, especially Flesh to Stone, would be critical for such a unit - that +2T is the only way a unit that size could survive the magical/artillery bombardment it's going to face before it reaches combat.
 
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Re: Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

Postby pel-thoron » July 31st, 2010, 09:0

i sometimes think far too many people play more theoryhammer/mathshammer than warhammer. its a game, play it, have an imagination, enjoy the twists and turns of fate and take chances, field things you LIKE the idea of rather than what stats up best on paper.
there are FAR to many variables involved in most warhammer combats to say one thing or another is viable- not only in game effects of multiple units, positioning, terrain etc, plus the fact all these mathshammer things assume pristine units (lets face it if pristine units are reaching your cc units then your archers and support units like wardancers, dryads and warhawks must have been off for a picnic somewhere). summing this thread up before it got daft, yes on paper hordes arent for wood elves. why is this a surprise? why is it even a consideration? certainly doesnt fit the fluff. you want hordes of elven cc troops? play druchii or asur. theyre better at it, and it fits their background more.
 
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Re: Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

Postby powerofnature213 » July 31st, 2010, 15:0

Dryads its good hordes unit:) in spite of is it skirmish.
 
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Re: Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

Postby Mist Walker » July 31st, 2010, 16:0

powerofnature213 wrote:Dryads its good hordes unit:) in spite of is it skirmish.


Not sure how that works considering their maximum unit size is 20?
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Re: Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

Postby powerofnature213 » July 31st, 2010, 18:0

yes, but I meant about a few units:) Its good hordes;D Sorry for my english but I am only studying:)
 
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Re: Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

Postby mrtspence » July 31st, 2010, 19:0

pel-thoron wrote:i sometimes think far too many people play more theoryhammer/mathshammer than warhammer. its a game, play it, have an imagination, enjoy the twists and turns of fate and take chances, field things you LIKE the idea of rather than what stats up best on paper.
there are FAR to many variables involved in most warhammer combats to say one thing or another is viable- not only in game effects of multiple units, positioning, terrain etc, plus the fact all these mathshammer things assume pristine units (lets face it if pristine units are reaching your cc units then your archers and support units like wardancers, dryads and warhawks must have been off for a picnic somewhere). summing this thread up before it got daft, yes on paper hordes arent for wood elves. why is this a surprise? why is it even a consideration? certainly doesnt fit the fluff. you want hordes of elven cc troops? play druchii or asur. theyre better at it, and it fits their background more.


I'm not sure I like this post :P. Not enough capitalization ;)


First of all, I am sick of people bashing Mathhammer. I agree, it cannot take into account what all the other units on the table are doing, but that has more to do with being a good General (stacking things in your favour). When you take Generalship out of the equation (assume the other guy is as good as you), Mathhammer is ideal for determining how a unit would perform against another, and gives players an idea of what to expect when they decide to send their unit into combat with another (I do Mathhammer in my head before I declare any charges xD). It is likely the most valid form of speculation, and has a place in reasoned discussion.

Secondly, I basically just showed that Gladeguard are actually pretty good in a horde (certainly worlds better than EG). While several smaller units can put out the same number of shots, they are worse in close combat--which we cannot avoid anymore--and make much better use of buffs (which Life magic is full of). Big units are a trend in the new edition--for good reason--and we would be foolish to stubbornly ignore the changes 8th ed has brought about.

Thirdly, I didn't pick Woodelves because I wanted to run little tiny units of T3 elves. I loved the models (minus the treespirits, but I am somewhat handy with greenstuff, so that doesn't matter), loved the background, and loved the idea of playing a more challenging army. So don't tell me I should go play Darkelves because I want to field a big (and effective) unit! Not everyone picked Woodelves because they relied on MSU!
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Re: Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

Postby Ramesesis » July 31st, 2010, 23:0

Dear fellow nobles Pel-Thoron and mrtspence. I believe you two are closer than you realize in spirit. Neither have breached any protocoll but I simply want to try and steam a possible little brook before it may turn into a river.

I am not a huge fan of mathammer as an end to itself, but even a fluffmonger like myself do like to see some simple comparissions. No, eternal guards are not the optimal horde unit, and I don´t think they should be. But they are stubborn anyway, which makes them perfect in some ways. They put out a shitload of attacks without hording, and still don´t need to deploy deep to get steadfast.

I will field mine 24-28 strong, to make use of this fact and because I like my serried ranks of spears! That is "horde" enough for me.

But as show, the Glade guads can be used as a horde, and there is no need to get annoyed because someone makes an example showing how it might work under ideal conditions.

Thing is, you both picked asrais not because they were MSU, or because they were given nifty rules and powerz. You seem to have chosen them for the same reason as I did, because their imagery and background are darn cool and evocative.
I like larger units. The fact that larger units now pays of makes me happy. If asrais are a bit nerfed because of it does not bother me. It has reignited my asrai-interest even if intellect tells me I should push even more with my Empire army.
But that I like large units do not mean I feel I must field them like hordes. Far from. I think hordes belong to the hordy armies. And in the end, the horde is not as badass when faced with an enemy deployed deeper and remaining steadfast. And one that have a Treeman pilling in alongside it to help stomping the horde to plump. ;)

but in the end, if you wanna do a horde of EG, GG or whatever, GO FOR IT! Just remember to come back here and tell us how your asrai horde made your enemies run with fear! :cool:

I wonder how the Thebain phalanx would fare in this hoardy times...
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Re: Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

Postby pel-thoron » August 1st, 2010, 11:0

My point about hording gg seems to be missed- they are good mobile missile troops whose points cost is largely wasted if they dont get to shoot.
Ok, assume a minimal horde of 30, in 3 ranks ten wide (as juicy and huge a target as it is)- thats 5 shots a turn you arent using, or ten if you move- thats a unit of ten glade guard who may as well be in a seperate unit, sending arrows downrange constantly. why focus on getting a horde together (whose bonuses are for cc) made from models that arent even designed for cc? each to their own, but i will stick with mobile, small units that do what they are designed for, except eg, who even though ive played wood elves since 3rd ed ive never fielded (or their earlier spear armed cousins), but when i do field i may be 20-30 strong just for looks.
Sorry, i base my army composition primarily on fluff, then whats painted, then effectiveness. i kind of understand people who mathshammer/play competitively rather than just for the cinematics etc- not my goblet of entwine though, but as i say each to their own.
The only hordes i will field is with my chaos marauder army- if anyone wants to mathhammer an effective value for points cc horde im guessing they do quite well :)
 
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Re: Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

Postby Ramesesis » August 1st, 2010, 17:0

Thing is, some scenarios makes it very beneficial to have standards in your units. The more the better. I feel 10 Glade guards is just too small a unit to be given a standard and the rest of the command.

If it was not for that, I would also stick too 10 man units and use the increased mobility they would give.

There is still the possibility of me fielding one 14 man GG with Full command and two 10-strong without.
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Re: Why Wood Elves really can't do Hordes, even with Eternals.

Postby Azaireal » August 2nd, 2010, 05:0

Luckily, I have 30+ models to use as wild riders, and the only thing from stopping me from making a Wild Rider horde is the fact my main opponent is 1) Dwarf and 2) loves siege engines.

Change either of those facts and I "can't" see how I could lose... Well, really I can, but its still would be fun to see his expression when over half my points are deployed on my first placement.

Remember, wining a war is two thirds bluff one third dumb luck.

That, and I consider it a victory when my enemy is running out of my way. XP

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